Curse

diabiosx · Aug 03, 2010, 06:57 PM // 18:57

the current esurge mes bar in HA is a little too OP. It can drain all the monks energy instantly leaving them basically in a disabled state. You cant use your low set at a certain point as everytime you switch to it, you take a shit load of damage from mindwrack. Even if they drain you with 2energy left on your pool, u take 18from surge,24from mind wrack and 94 from mind wrack ending. The bar basically works like a blackout mesmer but with DPS.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 03, 2010, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I know that attack spam is king in PvE, and tons of people are suggesting that we nerf how other people use the scythe to even things out. I say that's a bad idea, and instead suggest ways that the Dervish can be better without nerfing older builds. Please note these are all PvE buffs:

First up, scythe attacks:

Eremite's Attack - This skill recharges instantly if it hits a foe and you have Mysticism greater than 4.

Mystic Sweep - This skill recharges instantly if if it hits a foe and you have Mysticism greater than 4.

Irresistible Sweep - Now removes one Dervish Enchantment. Recharges instantly if a dervish enchantment is removed.

Reaper's Sweep - Lower recharge to 2. Deep wound at 75%.

The 3/4 attacks are now the best on the Dervish, as they instantly recharge when they hit. It's still susceptible to blind and block, so it's the player's choice if they want one or both of the attack skills on their bar. Irresistible is a good choice for "instant recharge on Dervish Enchantment removal" which will fuel enchantment juggling on a newly buffed Earth Prayers line. Reaper's is now in line with Wounding strike, as it does plenty of damage, and the enchantment removal is very useful in PvE.

Next is IAS:

Onslaught - Increase IAS and IMS to 33%, lower recharge to 5, lose 10 energy if you have Mysticism 4 or lower.

Pious Fury - Increased duration to 3..10. Renews itself whenever an enchantment ends on you.

This gives a good damage boost for the Wind Prayer line. Onslaught is more ready and stronger, but not impossibly out of reach of other professions. Pious Fury now is recharged with any ending enchantments and a longer recharge instead of stripping them itself for a set duration. This will help enchantment-juggling by speeding up the spamability of strip-attacks, with it renewing itself.

Next up, Avatars:

Lyssa - Also when striking attacking foes, it's an automatic critical strike.

Balthazar - Attack skills cause burning to all nearby foes for 0..3 seconds.

Grenth - Life steal increased to 5..35.

Dwayna - When an enchantment ends on you, the party gains 5..15 health.

Melandru - When an enchantment ends on you, your party loses one condition. Lower cost to 10.

All these effects are in addition to their current forms, for PvE-only. Skills cast too fast in HM for Lyssa to be effective all the time, so crits are rewarded to hitting attacking foes while bonus damage is still awarded to landing hits on casting foes. Balthazar gives a good amount of damage with a nearby burning, which is pretty spammy too; a welcome addition to any group. Grenth gets a boost in damage to match the other avatars. Dwayna can heal the party through juggling, and Melandru does the same with conditions. A lower cost makes it more approachable.

My other non PvE-only suggestions can be found here:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...date_-_Dervish

Let me know if I'm crazy.

Wow that's overpowered as shit.

reaper with no name · Aug 04, 2010, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack: should be 2 seconds, not 1. Otherwise, those two would be absolutely perfect. Since Mystic Sweep can provide so much more damage than Protector's Strike (and Eremite's can too on occasion), the dervish would essentially gain an extra skill slot (since they wouldn't have time to spam anything other than those two skills due to the shortened recharge, yet they would do more damage at the same time).

Irresistible Sweep: wouldn't matter because enchantments still wouldn't be worth using.

Onslaught: That's what the skill should have always been. Still wouldn't be worth taking, though.

Reaper's Sweep: would be okay if it wasn't begging to be abused by dervish secondaries. Would be a W/D's dream (and all they would need is a zealous scythe, too).

Pious Fury: sure, why not? Still wouldn't be part of the top builds, though.

Avatars: AoM would be just what the dervish needs. AoD... might be ok for some niche builds. AoG and AoB would still not be worthwhile. Doubt AoL would be worth using, either.

So basically, once again, proof of how much help this class needs, when even overpowered changes like most of these ones would still leave the class underpowered.

Nechrond · Aug 04, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

AoLyssa would be awesome if it auto-critted against attacking foes. Crits are far more impressive on scythes than on any other weapon, which is why assassins are so good with them. IF the ridiculous disable gets taken off, this would probably make Lyssa-Dervs very viable.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 04, 2010, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Mystic Sweep and Eremite's Attack: should be 2 seconds, not 1. Otherwise, those two would be absolutely perfect. Since Mystic Sweep can provide so much more damage than Protector's Strike (and Eremite's can too on occasion), the dervish would essentially gain an extra skill slot (since they wouldn't have time to spam anything other than those two skills due to the shortened recharge, yet they would do more damage at the same time).

Those skills are really really really powerful already. Being able to continuously spam those skills without any sort of pause would be insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Onslaught: That's what the skill should have always been. Still wouldn't be worth taking, though.

Agreed if Anet finally makes HoF maintainable. If not then it'll still have its place as a maintainable IAS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Reaper's Sweep: would be okay if it wasn't begging to be abused by dervish secondaries. Would be a W/D's dream (and all they would need is a zealous scythe, too).

As long as they make primary dervishes better that really wouldn't be that big of a deal I don't think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Pious Fury: sure, why not? Still wouldn't be part of the top builds, though.

Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Avatars: AoM would be just what the dervish needs. AoD... might be ok for some niche builds. AoG and AoB would still not be worthwhile. Doubt AoL would be worth using, either.

I disagree. That kind of party wide support should be saved for things in the Wind Prayers line if its on the Dervish at all. Avatar of Grenth would be pulling in 105 health per hit. Assuming that they give Dervs a decent IAS that's a ton of health in a short period of time. Then the damage is pretty over the top as well. Constant crits from Lyssa just seems like it's way over the top as well but it's one of the less OP'd changes. Avatar of Balth actually seems like a good idea. Just make it in IAS as well as add burning and you have a decent avatar.

reaper with no name · Aug 04, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Those skills are really really really powerful already. Being able to continuously spam those skills without any sort of pause would be insane.

Agreed if Anet finally makes HoF maintainable. If not then it'll still have its place as a maintainable IAS.

As long as they make primary dervishes better that really wouldn't be that big of a deal I don't think.

Agreed

I disagree. That kind of party wide support should be saved for things in the Wind Prayers line if its on the Dervish at all. Avatar of Grenth would be pulling in 105 health per hit. Assuming that they give Dervs a decent IAS that's a ton of health in a short period of time. Then the damage is pretty over the top as well. Constant crits from Lyssa just seems like it's way over the top as well but it's one of the less OP'd changes. Avatar of Balth actually seems like a good idea. Just make it in IAS as well as add burning and you have a decent avatar.

Making those particular skills more spammable basically just removes the need for Protector's Strike on a primary dervish. That's it. And it's nowhere near as overpowered as, say, critscythe.

The problem is that a W/D would be better at using such an improved RS than a D/X due to strength.

An elite just for a maintainable 33% IAS that requires about half your attribute points? That's what Soldier's Stance is for. And it's still an inferior option.

105 health per hit is still less powerful than a Scythe Warrior, even before you consider the need for a PvE slot to maintain the avatar (without which you have to mentally multiply the benefits by .75). And there is nothing in there about improving dervish IAS (save for Onslaught, which would remove the option of using zealous vow and therefore is not worth discussing).

How many skills in Wind Prayers are party support? Maybe 1 or 2? Yes, that's more than any others, but keep in mind that mysticism is supposed to be the energy management attribute, yet wind prayers has the only decent energy management skills. Point is, wind prayers can't figure out what the hell it wants to be, and there's nothing indicating it is supposed to be about party support. It's a mishmash attribute incorporating a little of everything. Hell, in PvP it even has a scythe attack.

I don't think you're understanding the fact that potential dervish buffs have binary values. They either make (or help to make) the dervish better than it's competition (value of 1) or don't (value of 0). The competition is overpowered. So, the only dervish buffs that are going to be of any use whatsoever in improving the class will by definition have to be overpowered. Anything less would be a waste of time, since there would still be no reason to use the class. This is why so many people say that nerfing the competition is preferable.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 04, 2010, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I don't think you're understanding the fact that potential dervish buffs have binary values. They either make (or help to make) the dervish better than it's competition (value of 1) or don't (value of 0). The competition is overpowered. So, the only dervish buffs that are going to be of any use whatsoever in improving the class will by definition have to be overpowered. Anything less would be a waste of time, since there would still be no reason to use the class. This is why so many people say that nerfing the competition is preferable.

I understand that the other classes are overpowered and that Dervishes will need to given the same treatment to be equal. But at the same time I don't want that taken too far which some of the suggested buffs seem to be doing. I mean partywide healing on top of self healing and self hex removal? You would be getting pretty decent support while at the same time being able to deal good damage. And partywide condition removal with personal condition immunity? You'd be like a permanent cautry signet while you yourself are immune to some of the biggest physical counters in the game (blind and weakness).

I don't have a problem with overpowered suggestions. In fact I have made and praised overpowered suggestions in the past. I just don't see amazing party support as something the dervish should be able to do with Avatars.

Skye Marin · Aug 04, 2010, 04:34 PM // 16:34

I just want to focus on my one main suggestion here:

Mystic Sweep - This skill recharges instantly if it hits a foe and you have Mysticism greater than 4.

It sticks out as crazy powerful, but I didn't suggest it without thinking of the consequences. There are a few things you can do with it to make it a little less insane, like upping the req to greater than 8, or making it recharge 50% faster on hit instead of instantly. Let's update the description just to be clear again.

Mystic Sweep - Halves recharge time if it hits a foe and you have Mysticism greater than 8.

If you choose this skill on a Dervish, you still have to deal with you being a Dervish. Energy management is dependent on an Elite, like Zealous Vow, or on Attacker's Insight + Lyssa's Assault, both require an investment in Wind Prayers. Compared to the Warrior, Assassin, and Ranger, their energy management investment is in their Primary Attribute (Warrior's Endurance, critical strikes, expertise) which helps them otherwise with AP, critical strikes, and fueling their own profession's skills respectively.

What I'm sure we can agree on is that Mysticism is not a good source of energy management if your objective is to spam out attacks, which, right now, is the best way to deal damage. Of course I hope Earth enchantments get some good damage-on-end PBAoE effects, and enchantment juggling is improved, but it would be hard to still bring it up to the level of other attack spammers. Maybe if you gave it stronger and supported the party at the same time (see my Balth suggestion + "They're on fire!").

Damage is damage, not support. You could bring a Dervish to support, and that would be good, but it doesn't make sense that a Dervish attack skills spam build doesn't have the potential to be the best on the Dervish. I'm open to suggestions, but to help this build on a Dervish, it need to either be buffed for the Dervish, or nerfed for all other classes, and my Assassin (and Warrior and Ranger) would much much prefer the first option.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 04, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I just want to focus on my one main suggestion here:

Mystic Sweep - This skill recharges instantly if it hits a foe and you have Mysticism greater than 4.

It sticks out as crazy powerful, but I didn't suggest it without thinking of the consequences. There are a few things you can do with it to make it a little less insane, like upping the req to greater than 8, or making it recharge 50% faster on hit instead of instantly. Let's update the description just to be clear again.

Mystic Sweep - Halves recharge time if it hits a foe and you have Mysticism greater than 8.

If you choose this skill on a Dervish, you still have to deal with you being a Dervish. Energy management is dependent on an Elite, like Zealous Vow, or on Attacker's Insight + Lyssa's Assault, both require an investment in Wind Prayers. Compared to the Warrior, Assassin, and Ranger, their energy management investment is in their Primary Attribute (Warrior's Endurance, critical strikes, expertise) which helps them otherwise with AP, critical strikes, and fueling their own profession's skills respectively.
.

I dunno I just find this skill to be really powerful already. If I were to change it it would be something like

Mystic Sweep 5 3/4 8
You deal +5...9 damage for each enchantment on you. This skill recharges 12% faster for every 2 points of mysticism you have.

This conversation should probably be taken to the Dervish Update thread in the Dervish subforum. There's a fairly active conversation about the update going on there already.

OMFGimCUTE · Aug 04, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Sorry, we have been busy with unforeseen holiday events.

Next month.

busy with holidays? but isn't it the same every year anyways?

FengShuiDove · Aug 04, 2010, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMFGimCUTE

busy with holidays? but isn't it the same every year anyways?

People have been misunderstanding this since it was posted. It shouldn't need /sarcasm at the end, it's dripping with it. Unforeseen holidays is a super crappy excuse, but the kind of thing we expect ANet to postpone updates for.

Explanation found.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 04, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

People have been misunderstanding this since it was posted. It shouldn't need /sarcasm at the end, it's dripping with it. Unforeseen holidays is a super crappy excuse, but the kind of thing we expect ANet to postpone updates for.

Explanation found.

To be honest they don't have to give an excuse to the people who t ask "Whar is mah update" every Thursday. These people have the insane expectation that Anet is going to come up with some big ass update every single week. Regardless of what Anet has said in the past they now have 4-5 people working on the game. If that were the average classroom size in the United States the whole country would be 90% smarter.

So what if they said they'd come up with something every 2 months? Common sense should tell you that they aren't going to be shooting out Sorrows Furnaces all the damn time. They really shouldn't have to tell you after every update 'yea so this one might take longer than expected." your expectation should be that it will be awhile. They just gave a HUEG amount of PvE content and did a little bit of messing around in PvP. So they are far from doing absolutely nothing.

Lastly the bitching and moaning is falling on the wrong ears. You're complaining to the other players around you who are just as eager for new content as you are. Why not write a letter or email asking them to get off their "lazy asses" and get that update ready?

FengShuiDove · Aug 05, 2010, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

-snip-

Hope that rage wasn't directed mostly at me. I'm doing fine with a Dervish sitting around. I'm just tired of seeing people quote Yelling @ Cats from like page 1 because they don't understand the sarcasm.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 05, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Hope that rage wasn't directed mostly at me. I'm doing fine with a Dervish sitting around. I'm just tired of seeing people quote Yelling @ Cats from like page 1 because they don't understand the sarcasm.

It wasn't rage. Just irritation from seeing the same complaint over and over and over. And it was more directed at the community at large than anything.

Just yelling at the wall.

And what can you do? Some 13 year olds aren't quick on the uptake.

Solar Light · Aug 05, 2010, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

stop trolling, and if ur serious about it then u need to go consult a doctor (strength= nearly useless btw)

Dunno, free Armor Penetraiton against high AL foes in HM isnt anything to sneese at, Strengths far better off as a class exlusive attribute line than probably half the other professions out there.

Heck, Warriors arguably have been the most balanced class in the game historicly.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 05, 2010, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solar Light

Dunno, free Armor Penetraiton against high AL foes in HM isnt anything to sneeze at, Strengths far better off as a class exlusive attribute line than probably half the other professions out there.

Heck, Warriors arguably have been the most balanced class in the game historicly.

Ehhhhh I'd say they had a rocky start. But for the past few years they've been in very good shape.

reaper with no name · Aug 05, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I understand that the other classes are overpowered and that Dervishes will need to given the same treatment to be equal. But at the same time I don't want that taken too far which some of the suggested buffs seem to be doing. I mean partywide healing on top of self healing and self hex removal? You would be getting pretty decent support while at the same time being able to deal good damage. And partywide condition removal with personal condition immunity? You'd be like a permanent cautry signet while you yourself are immune to some of the biggest physical counters in the game (blind and weakness).

I don't have a problem with overpowered suggestions. In fact I have made and praised overpowered suggestions in the past. I just don't see amazing party support as something the dervish should be able to do with Avatars.

You'd be giving up somewhere around 40 dps per avatar for each of those support benefits compared to a zealous vow dervish. Considering that melee's purpose is dps, the support benefits have to be that insane in order to justify a frontliner giving up such a significant portion of their damage. See "Save Yourselves!" for an example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I dunno I just find this skill to be really powerful already. If I were to change it it would be something like

Mystic Sweep 5 3/4 8
You deal +5...9 damage for each enchantment on you. This skill recharges 12% faster for every 2 points of mysticism you have.

This conversation should probably be taken to the Dervish Update thread in the Dervish subforum. There's a fairly active conversation about the update going on there already.

This would also work. Again, it ultimately doesn't matter whether the dervish gets buffed or the competition gets nerfed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

stop trolling, and if ur serious about it then u need to go consult a doctor (strength= nearly useless btw)

I'll take you seriously after you do the math. Either that, or when you realize that the reason strength is normally not so powerful is because most warrior builds don't perform 3 attack skills for every one autoattack. Go learn how scythe builds work before criticizing.

Gill Halendt · Aug 05, 2010, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Again, it ultimately doesn't matter whether the dervish gets buffed or the competition gets nerfed.

As a matter of principle, nerfing secondaries kinda defeats the point of secondaries to even exist.

I bought a game where secondaries gave the player a chance to combine the strong points of two classes, not a game where this feature is slowly being phased out to make the weakest classes artificially less handicapped. I'd rather see the Dervish buffed and being given some significance, a role, the peculiarity it's currently lacking, instead of nerfing secondaries to close the gap with a poorly-designed profession.

If you just nerf secondaries, Warriors and Sins would just drop Scythes for something else (both classes have excellent options regardless), leaving the Dervish in its current state, and nothing will really change.

belshazaarswrath · Aug 05, 2010, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

As a matter of principle, nerfing secondaries kinda defeats the point of secondaries to even exist.

I bought a game where secondaries gave the player a chance to combine the strong points of two classes, not a game where this feature is slowly being phased out to make the weakest classes artificially less handicapped. I'd rather see the Dervish buffed and being given some significance, a role, the peculiarity it's currently lacking, instead of nerfing secondaries to close the gap with a poorly-designed profession.

If you just nerf secondaries, Warriors and Sins would just drop Scythes for something else (both classes have excellent options regardless), leaving the Dervish in its current state, and nothing will really change.

To an extent I agree. But as is Warriors and Sins can do ridiculous amounts of damage with scythes. So rather than ruining their usage of scythes or just making Dervishes ridiculous in some new way I think that a little bit of nerfing and buffing would be better.

Just make the one second attacks have a reasonable but not spammable recharge. Warriors still have protectors strike and Sins are going to be getting crits so it's not nerfing it to oblivion by any means. This coupled with a slight buff to the skills for Dervish use would even it out pretty well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You'd be giving up somewhere around 40 dps per avatar for each of those support benefits compared to a zealous vow dervish. Considering that melee's purpose is dps, the support benefits have to be that insane in order to justify a frontliner giving up such a significant portion of their damage. See "Save Yourselves!" for an example.

To me that is more than reasonable and isn't supporting the purpose of the class.

I mean if you have that version of AoM conditions don't matter at all for your party. Even if your running an RC monk (which people don't do in PvE...do they?) your going to have to cast it on the people in your party. This just quietly gets rid of everything. And of course this is also unstrippable. Then with Dwayna you can have a pretty much insane partywide healing. This kind of overpowered support might get people to play Dervishes more but it will be going against their design as damage dealers and warriors and sins will be able to outdamage them.

TL;DR support is not the way to go on a damage class.

Desert Rose · Aug 05, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

TL;DR support is not the way to go on a damage class.

Dervishes were not designd to be pure physical fighters (you can tell this by their primary attribute that does not to improve their ablity to smach skulls), therefor they are not a (pure) damage class.
Making the support of the Dervish worthwhile is *exactly* what this class needs.